Title: Electric Dreams Volume 2 Number 3

File: Electric Dreams 2(3)

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Electric Dreams back issues are available to the public and

listed individually.

For an index of Articles and dreams on Electric Dreams,

See the IIDCC Research Tools area.

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Electric Dreams

Volume 2 Issue #3

24 February 1995

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--Back issue and the FAQ available via anonymous FTP at

sppc1952.uwsp.edu

-- Also available via America On Line:

Keyword: writers

\writers club library

\writers club ezines

--For mailing list info, subscriptions, dreams and comments

send to Cathy: <cathy@cassandra.ucr.edu>

--Send questions about dreams & dreaming to Matthew:

<mettw@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au>

--General comments, articles and ideas to Richard:

<RCWilk@aol.com>

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CONTENTS OF THIS ISSUE:

Editor's Notes & Day Residue

Questions and Answers - by Matthew

Child in dreams - Cathy

Philosophical dream theory? - A. J. Jacobson

Lucid Dream Note - Keelin

Discussion: Answers from Dreams

Article: Freud and the Interpretation of Dreams

Part II: Method - By Matthew

Freud Bibliography for Researchers - By Richard

Commentary: on "Vampire Conversion" by Jay

Commentary: on "The Door, the Limo and the TV" by Bob

Commentary: on "Blue Potion" by Jay

Dream: "Old Holiday Dream" or "Close Encounters of the

Fourth Kind" Jim Blowers

Commentary: on "Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind" by

Jay

Commentary: on "Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind" by

Bob

Commentary: on "Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind" by

Richard

Dream: "THIS, THAT, AND HERE STREETS" by Jim

Commentary: on "This, That and Here Streets" by Bob

Commentary: on "This, That and Here Streets" By Richard

Dream: "Alien Experiments" by Richard

Dream: "breaking up is hard to do" by stan kulikowski ii

Commentary: on "breaking up is hard to do" by Richard

Dream: "Nightmare" by Cathy

Dream: "Frisbee and House for Sale" by Viking

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DAY RESIDUE

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We have another full and richly textured issue for you this

week. We are still opening and examining dream problems and

answers. Jay and I encourage you to jump in and join our

discussion. Matthew offers us another essay on Freud. (see

Vol. 1(19) for his first essay) This time he talks about

the method of free association and some misconceptions

surrounding Freud's sexual symbolism. Be sure to check out

Keelin's observations on lucid dream symbols. And we have

been dreaming up a storm! Check out all the aliens,

monsters, intruders and unleased passions inhabiting this

cyber-issue.

-Richard

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Questions and Answers - by Matthew

===============================================

Dear Matthew,

I had two dreams this week in which I was a child again. I

was very conscious of being a child in a child's body in my

dream. This has not happened to me before. Usually I keep

a sense of myself as I am now in my dreams. Is this

common?

-Cathy

Hey- NBC will be presenting a documentary "The Secret World

of Dreams" and the gossip I have is May 13th. Anyone else

have more information on this?

- Richard

Note from Richard: Found this on the net:

Subj: dreaming - a request

Date: 95-02-19 11:31:47 EST

From: AJJacobson@UH.EDU

I'd appreciate help in finding some - or any - good

work on dreams in an analytic-philos of mind or

Wittgensteinian mode. I'm looking for recent work, and so

not Malcolm 60's work. I'm not now looking for work on

psychoanalytic theories. Perhaps something discussing

dreams and functionalism, or dreams and problems about

consciousness.

As you might guess, I'm looking for material for a

class, but I'm interested in work really at any level of

difficulty.

Thanks in advance,

Anne Jaap Jacobson

AJJacobson@uh.edu

Richard's note: I had previously asked Keelin, a lucid

dream worker, about symbols in lucid dreams and she sent us

this reply.

For Electric Dream re: Dream symbols of vulnerability:

During last year's pre-holiday season, I had a

dream in which I engaged in a personally familiar, but

relatively uncommon, activity I've come to think of as

"dream leaping". It's a sort of "long jump", but of

extraordinary length. It is accomplished by running at top

speed and then launching oneself into a foot-first,

horizontal position. Sheer willpower and focused attention

are essential to over-extending the length of the leap. In

this dream, I was explaining and demonstrating the

technique to nearby observers.

I'd not had this dream activity show up for a long

time and didn't give it much thought, other than to remind

myself that it was an excellent dream sign and could have

led to lucidity, had I caught it. What I did catch was a

brief cold the next day -- a surprise, since I tend to be

exceptionally healthy.

The holidays were busier and more stressful than

usual. Just after the peak, I found myself dream leaping

again, and the next day, came down with the worst flu I can

remember. I began to wonder if the dreamed activity had

been a warning. What was this dream leaping all about

anyway?

It didn't take long to see that I had been running

at an accelerated pace and launching myself into a myriad

of activities. With sheer will power and focused intention,

I had indeed over-extended myself to a point which proved

physically detrimental. You can be certain the next time I

find myself dream leaping, I'll pump up the vitamin Cs and

chill out! - Keelin

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DISCUSSION - Answers from Dreams

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Continued from issue 2, #2 (dream "Dogs" in 2, #1) Q and A:

Richard: Is this the issue for you or what? (rest cut)

Jay: What were you asking or saying here? Simply that you

get the message from me that 'getting answers from dreams'

is a big issue for me? If so, I agree.

Richard: Oh, no... I missed that aspect of "issue." I was

referring to Issue 2-2! I think my shadow comes out when I

try to self promote or be commercial. :)

Jay: The first problem I see is recognizing what possible

answers or solutions or courses of action are being

suggested by a dream, and the second problem is deciding

which suggestions might be correct. I was complaining more

about the first problem and your discussion dealt more with

the second problem. Of course, one can reduce it to a

single problem by recognizing only those solutions which

one considers to be correct.

I guess the obvious solution that my dogs dream may

be suggesting, but which I refuse to accept, is to be more

open with my feelings, to be willing to do more risk

taking, to accept the effort and ambiguity and commitment

required by being more involved in life and relationships.

I notice that neither you or Bob had anything further to

say about solutions suggested by my 'dogs' dream. Was that

because you saw none or because you felt that it remains

for me to discover my own solutions?

You ask who should determine the answers. I agree

that ultimately it has to be the individual, although,

hopefully with the help of his/her community/society.

'Obviously', there is no one correct answer, only better or

worse answers. And 'obviously' there is no one correct set

of criteria for choosing the correct course of action.

I usually aspire to do that which is best for the

world and all it's members, though 'obviously' we usually

fall far short of that, often putting ourselves before the

world at large, or failing, even, to do what is best for

ourselves. Thus, the need for dreams and making use of

them, among other forms of problem solving.

As a person who is very interested in the unknown,

but who believes only in the confirmed, as defined by me, I

do not currently believe that dreams and any answers they

might contain come fromhigher supernatural forces or

beings, though I remain open to that possibility, but

rather, I suspect that they come from the workings of all

the parts of my own brain, mysterious and wonderful as that

is, and still consider that there might be much to learn

and enjoy from my and others dreams, that there is much

other significant processing going on in my body besides

the conscious thinking that I do.

You suggest incubation as a way to request or

encourage solution dreams. This is something I feel we are

already doing, in a general way, by paying attention to and

reflecting on our dreams as we are doing here. Certainly

this is what I am doing when I ask for answers to my

problems in my dreams. Perhaps I should try making more

specific requests and/or doing more acting on the insights

I receive.

Richard: I see now how I missed your real request for ways

of looking at the dream for solutions. I thought other

people might respond directly from your dream "Dogs" and

not only offer suggestions they saw, but also share some

techniques for approaching dream imagery in this way. I

wanted to try a different tack and suggested using the

dream process itself to get answers from "Dogs." I imagined

you might incubate a question before bed like, "OK, if the

dogs represent the paradox of the problem of exposing or

keeping my emotions locked up, what then can I do about

this?" or more directed at the first dream, "In what way is

my 'Dogs' dream offering me some useful solutions?"

But what I'm hearing now is that you were hoping for

some more readings on "Dogs" that shifted the focus from

reflections to more specific suggestions for actions. I

think you are right that I responded a bit off center of

your main concern, and will probably continue in a similar

vein. My interest in Electric Dreams is in the interpretive

space between my being the authority and you being the

authority. Of course, as you mentioned, in your life you

can be seen as the final authority and in mine, I may be.

But I see my role as keeping the dream images in play long

enough that something unusual happens, either between us

or between us and the dream image itself. I don't really

feel you are forcing me into a know-the-answer position,

you just wanted some plain opinions and comments from the

community. True? Still, my interest in dreams as solutions

to problems is only peripheral.

It appears as if you have already begun work on dream

solutions by dividing the approach into two useful

categories. The first is how to best recognize the answers,

solutions and courses of action, and the second is then how

to choose between them. As you suggested, this approach

leaves room for both optimism and skepticism as well as

multiple possibilities. And I also agree that we *are*

already incubating our dreams by simply having concerns

about what solutions they might offer.

I'd like to pick up on your suggestion as a further

filtering that the "best" answers from the dream are novel

and somewhat unexpected ones. I sense in your exploration a

similar path to mine on this. It's not as interesting to me

personally when my interpretations simply confirm what I

already know and suspect. I recognize that this approach

isn't for everyone at all times. I know a woman, for

example, who takes her dreams as a confirmation or

validation of events and actions already chosen, and this

works fine for her.

Is it important what we believe in terms of *where*

the dream answers come from, messages from heaven or

unknown answers from chemically disrupted synaptic

functioning? There is some difference, I believe, and I

hope we can talk about this more and develop just how

those differences play out though our individual lives and

dramas. For now I just want to pick up on the value you

mentioned, that the best interpretation is the one that is

(ideally) best for everyone. My sense is that this means

you keep in your mind a context of sorts that has

everyone's best interests, and that it is utilitarian and

includes something like allowing for maximum individual

development or the most actualization of individual

potential. (And, as you mentioned, including *ourselves* in

this equation).

My understanding of what you were saying is that

dreams, among other things, fit into the gap between the

real and the ideal and help to mediate this disparity.

I've always liked this kind of Neoplatonic thinking.

Instead of an mind/body split that is so popular today,

having a creative 3rd between them to mediate the two is

very productive. On one hand is the mind, the ideal, the

abstract. In the other is the concrete, the material,

empirics. Mediating between them is something like psyche

or an imaginal area that touches both but is also somehow

quite different and involves a creative response, such as a

dream.

Still, its hard to say the dream is a *clear* solution

even if we accept that it is trying to mediate the

disparity. C. G. Jung claimed that the confusion was ours,

not the dreams. He felt that dreams came from a world that

had a better contact with the Big Picture than we do and it

was our stubbornness to mold everything to our own little

world that created the confusion. But whatever the reason,

dreams are still not immediately apparent to us (usually)

and require translation if they are to be placed in the

category of what we accept as normal solutions. But we all

know that the method will influence the results, so how do

we choose a method and by what authority? As you already

know, one of the solutions that we are experimenting with

here at Electric Dreams is accepting the multiplicity and

(hopefully) responding in kind.

It's difficult to know , in the context of our

community, when we are sharing opinions and comments about

dreams and dreaming and when we are moving into someone's

personal life and giving advice about how to live. This

may also have something to do with our lack of response to

you. There may be room for development between giving

advice and withholding all thoughts.

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FREUD AND THE INTERPRETATION OF DREAMS

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By Matthew mettw@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au

PART II - METHOD

----------------

When first looking at a dream it is very easy to see

nothing but a quite silly combination of (seemingly)

unrelated events and images. This sort of impression

though comes mainly I think from trying to interpret the

dream within our conscious experience. That is, to see

many of the experiences in waking life, they would indeed

be ridiculous. The fault with doing this is that in sleep

there are no physical laws that must be obeyed, and there

is no-one to whom we are communicating, so there is no need

for particularly precise or easily intelligible expression.

The dream is as free to express itself as the modern

artist.

The first step to interpreting a dream is then to take

a particular dream element and to freely allow your mind to

form whatever associations come to you. It is important

here that you don't reject any thought as being too trivial

or especially for being so painful or repugnant that you

feel it couldn't possibly be relevant. The idea behind

this method of `free association' is that you know the

meaning of the particular dream element unconsciously, and,

by allowing your mind to wander around the dream element,

you will bring up other associations to the latent dream

thought that caused the dream element. By putting all the

associations together you should be able to find the common

link between them all and therefore unlock the latent

thought behind the dream element.

To take an example from a young girl who was a patient

of Freud:

She was walking across the hall of her house and

struck her head against a low-hanging chandelier

and drew blood.

No reminiscence, nothing that had really

happened.

The information she produced in response to it led

in quite other directions. `You know how badly my

hair's falling out. ``My child,'' my mother said

to me yesterday,``if this goes any further you'll

have a head as smooth as a bottom.'' ' So here the

head stands for the other end of the body. We can

understand the chandelier, without any help, as a

symbol: all objects capable of being lengthened are

symbols of the male organ. It was therefore a

matter of bleeding at the lower end of the body,

which had arisen from contact with a penis. This

might be ambiguous. Her further associations

showed that what was in question concerned a belief

that menstrual bleeding arises from sexual

intercourse with a man - a piece of sexual theory

which counts many faithful believers among

immature girls.

Thank god for sex education. This dream throws up two

characteristics of Freud's theory: first, there is the

belief that objects which can extend, rise, grow larger,

eject water or other liquids, come in threes etc. should

all be taken as phallic symbols. This has led to the

common misconception that Freud used a dream dictionary,

but this is simply not true. The conclusions Freud reached

about phallic symbols came from many years of getting the

same free associations to the same dream symbols; we all

share common experiences, and so it is not all that

surprising that we should come up with common dream

symbols. The great majority of dream symbols however can't

be instantly recognized like this, and so the free

association method

is necessary for every dream.

The second characteristic of Freud's theory is that

it was formed with the dreams of the neurotic, sexually

repressed of the turn of the century, and particularly the

hysterical adolescent petty bourgeois girl. The latter is

something noticed by Freud himself, his theory being that

the lower classes see sex around them as they grow up,

especially those raised in the country who see the animals

having sex. As a result they are less likely to become

frigid from having their first sight of sex on the marital

bed. Some have criticized Freud's method of dream

interpretation for this reason, but I personally can't see

any correlation between the types of dreams studied and the

method of free association. It has worked for me in every

dream I've tried it on, and my dreams are not overly

sexually obsessed.

Freudian interpretation is therefore a simple one;

allow your mind to wander free, and it bring up

associations that revolve around the latent dream thought.

Matthew

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Dream Researcher's Bibliography: Selections From Freud

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Note: For the bibliophiles and researchers I've added this

little supplement to Matthew's essay. If you have some

favorite references about dreams from Freud or annotations

to these selections, please send them in and we'll start

piecing together a collective bibliography. -Richard

Freud, Sigmund. (1900/1953). The Interpretation of Dreams.

Standard Edition, 4&5. London: Hogarth Press.

--------. (1965; first published 1900). The Interpretation

of Dreams. James Strachey,Trans. New York: Avon Books.

--------. (1956). Delusion and Dream. Philip Rieff,Ed.

Boston: The Becon Press.

--------. (1938). Dream interpretation as an illustration.

In (Chap v). An Outline of Psychoanalysis. New York,NY:

W.W. Norton.

--------. (1933). Dreams and the occult. In (Chap xxx),

New Introductory Lectures to Psychoanalysis. New York,

NY: W. W. Norton.

--------. (1933/32). Revision of the theory of the dream.

In New Introductory Lectures to Psychoanalysis. Standard

Edition, 22, 5-183. London: Hogarth Press.

--------. (1925) Some additional notes upon

dream-interpretation as a whole. Standard Edition, 19,

127-138. London: Hogarth Press.

--------. (1923/1922). Remarks upon the theory and practice

of dream-interpretation. Standard Edition, 19, 72-105.

London: Hogarth Press.

--------. (1922). Dreams and telepathy. Standard Edition,

18, 197-220. London: Hogarth Press.

--------. (1914-1917). A metapsychological supplement to

the theory of dreams. In Vol. 14, The Complete

Psychological Works of Sigmund Freud (Standard

Edition, pp. 222-235). London: Hogarth Press.

--------.(1912/1924). The employment of

dream-interpretation in psycho-analysis. In Collected

Papers, II. London: Hogarth Press.

--------. (1913a). An evidential dream. Standard Edition,

12, 269-277.

--------.(1913b). The occurrence in dreams of material from

fairy-tales. Standard Edition, 12, 281-287. London:

Hogarth Press.

--------. (1911). The handling of dream interpretation in

psycho-analysis. Standard Edition, 12, 91-96. London:

Hogarth Press.

--------. (1908). Creative writers and day-dreaming. In

Charles Kaplan and William Anderson (Eds.), Criticism:

Major Statements,3rd Edition, 1991.

--------. (1907/1906) Delusions and dreams in Jensen's

Graviva. Standard Edition, 9, 7-95. London: Hogarth

Press.

--------. (1901-1904). On Dreams. In Vol. 5, The Complete

Psychological Works of Sigmund Freud. Standard Edition.

London: Hogarth Press. 633-686.

--------. (1978; first published 1900). The Interpretation

of Dreams. A. A. Brill (Trans.) New York: The Modern

Library.

Freud, S. & Oppenheim, D. E. (1958). Dreams in Folklore.

New York: International Universities Press, Inc.

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DREAMS AND COMMENTS

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======Commentary on Viking's "The Door, the Limo and the

TV" by Bob (see vol. 2, no. 2)======

The dream is apparently about boundaries, or

rather, the lack of boundaries. The dreamer's boundaries

are virtually non-existent. A white limo enters the

dreamer's driveway. A strange man enters his bathroom.

His young daughter is able to leave the house without his

knowledge and/or permission. There's very little

communicating going on. There is a lot of noise, which can

be defined as non-communicative sound. At the end, the

dreamer realizes he is to blame for the things that are

missing in his life (i.e. he "left the door open" and the

people in the white limo were able to take property that

rightfully belongs to the dreamer.

As the dreamer chases after the limo it's too late

to get its license number. "Getting someone's number" is

often used as a slang term for discerning someone's

disguised intentions. The dreamer is also concerned that

his mistakes also affect the welfare of significant others

in his life ("I came back in and kept thinking how Vesta

was going to kill me for leaving the front door open.")

There is also a hint that the dreamer is trying to be

honest with himself and/or (i.e., taking a shower could

symbolize the dreamer wants to "come clean" or be honest

but it not clear in the dream if he succeeds because he

only "thinks" he went to take a shower. That may be his

dream mind's message to him.

As always, if the dreamer disagrees with this

interpretation then it is wrong. Only the dreamer knows.

======Further Comments on Cathy's 'Blue Potion' dream by

Jay (see vol.2, no. 2)======

It seems that I may be pushing an interpretation

that doesn't fit or the dreamer doesn't accept, and

therefor, has more to do with me than with the dreamer.

None the less.

Have you noticed that sometimes you call it a

'potent' and sometimes a potion. I indirectly pointed this

out by calling this your 'potent potion' dream, but you

edited that out. In any event, the potion certainly seems

to be potent. [Cathy's note--I missed that! My editing it

out does seem to indicate a block to see the potion as

potent]

Have you come up with any associations or feelings

about what the potion represents for you? [Cathy's

note--the suggestions that the potion concerned aging seems

to be very appropriate as I near 30]

Actually, I see a similarity between this dream and

your previous 'voyeurs' dream. [see vol.1 no. 20 for this

dream] It also had a sensual woman in it, the woman eating

candy on the floor. Indeed, I see a common thread in your

dream, Richard's 'vampire' dream [see vol.2 no. 2], and my

'dogs' dream [see vol.2 no. 1] in that they all could be

viewed as dealing with the struggle to repress feelings

which we don't feel are appropriate, and the pain that

results. I'm not saying that we are bad for having the

feelings nor whether it is better to repress them or better

to express them. Actually, I guess I believe it probably

would be better to express them in some form or other. The

problem, it seems to me, is how to express them in a

positive, productive manner. How to make use of their

energy in a useful manner.

I don't see your 'cruelty' to the second woman as

hurting someone else, but rather, as you hurting yourself

in your conflict about the potion verses the perfume.

Again, I hope this is helpful to you.

======"Old Holiday Dream" or "CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE

FOURTH KIND" by Jim Blowers======

1991 December 28 - CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE FOURTH

KIND - I overheard from some people that there was going

to be a procession of lights in the sky; planes or

something. We tried to call nearby relatives that were

nevertheless long-distance. But we kept getting "da-da-da,

no such number" messages when we call direct, and calling

the operator yielded no answer or an answering machine. I

scrambled to get dressed go to out, but I kept getting

interrupted. Finally I went out.

I remember looking in a national science magazine.

I saw announcements of movies. Only movies; no specific

theaters or times, and only science-related movies.

The scene was mid-to-late sunset. It was in a

park, a wayside near a road. There was a slight rise away

from the road on the right, and a huge dropoff from there.

The rise itself had a peak on the right side with back to

road.

I looked in the sky. I thought it was a bright sky

at first, but there were too many stars, and they were

moving. Lots of scattered ones, but the central part was

in perfect square formation, very closely packed, about

3x10. But as they passed overhead and went on down to the

2-o-clock position, they increased and measured about

10x70. The scattered lights

increased, too. Shortly afterward, I woke up. I didn't

think the thing was a dream until shortly after I awoke,

and then I decided to write it all down.

------Background Notes by Jim------

I had a previous dream the same night about an endless

sequence of office rooms, cluttered, and files. I had

recently seen movies about the Japanese bombing of Pearl

Harbor; in particular the huge arrays of planes coming into

the harbor.

My religious background is Unitarian, a mix of humanist and

agnostic. Since 1991 I have become increasingly interested

in paganism. The flying lights scene needs to be drawn to

appreciate its beauty.

======Commentary on Jim's 'Close Encounters of the Fourth

Kind' by Jay======

I don't have much interpretation, mostly just

questions. On the face of it, it seems to be some kind of

wonderful experience of some mysterious beauty of the

universe. There just happens to be an article in the issue

of Dream Network (Vol 13.4) which I just received, entitled

'The Phenomena of Extraterrestrial-UFO Dreams', which

discusses dreams like this, though many of the dreams in

the article include aliens, which this dream doesn't.

What do the lights in the dream bring to your mind?

Why were you trying to call your relatives? Who else was a

part of the 'we' who were calling? It seems that science

did not have any information to contribute about these

lights.

The image of a sky full of lights, all moving, to

me is a magical unsettling awesome image. It doesn't

happen in the waking world. It would be as though nature

were entering a new phase of existence, the second coming,

or end of time perhaps. Just one square of lights, and the

reference to arrays of planes, however, makes it sound like

a smaller force, rather than the whole of nature.

======Commentary on Jim's "Close Encounters of the Fourth

Kind" by Bob======

The dream seems to be about a feeling of emotional

isolation (which is not an unusual phenomenon around

Christmas). In view of the dreamer's postscript note that

he was watching movies of the attack on Pearl Harbor, it

might be inferred that the "procession of lights in the

sky; planes or something" evoked a feeling in the dreamer

of an impending attack. He "tried to call nearby

relatives that were nevertheless long-distance"

(emotionally distant?) but could not connect with them. He

then scrambles to get dressed (clothing is protective

covering) but is constantly interrupted (i.e. he remains

vulnerable for a prolonged period of time in the house).

Finally he leaves the house (leaves the area in which he

cannot connect with others and is vulnerable. Could this

be a metaphor for the dreamer's actual house/family?)

The dreamer is next looking through a science

magazine at movie announcements of science-related movies,

but with no times or specific theaters listed. Movies are

often thought of as a temporary "escape" from reality

because the viewer's attention is riveted to the screen.

Movies also usually involve stories of fictional characters

whose behavior is motivated by emotions. By going to a

science movie the dreamer can escape from (his) reality but

avoids having to deal with emotional involvement (or its

lack in his life) for a period of time. The problem

appears to be that the dreamer wants to escape but can't

because he doesn't know where to go to get temporary

relief; i.e. there are not times or specific theaters

mentioned.

The next part of the dream "was mid-to-late

sunset." This indicates that the dreamer feels it is

getting late for something to happen in his life. The park

may indicate the dreamer feels "parked" or stymied, and

"off the road." In dream symbology the right also

indicates the future, and if that is an accurate

interpretation in this dream, then the dreamer is concerned

that what awaits him in the future is a "huge dropoff" or

fall in some area of his

life.

Lastly, the stars in formation seem to indicate a

threat or danger (i.e. the packed formation may refer to

the Pearl Harbor movies that the dreamer saw prior to the

dream) that the dreamer cannot define except that the

threat may lie in an excess of something ("there were too

many stars", and a threat that is growing as time passes

(i.e. the star formation moves from overhead or 12 o'clock

position to a 2:00 position).

If the dreamer disagrees with the above

interpretation then it is wrong. Only the dreamer knows.

======Commentary on Jim's "Close Encounters of the Fourth

Kind" by Richard======

I wanted to experiment here with two narrow directions, one

where

dreams point back to themselves and the other were they

refer to

something beyond themselves.

If this were my dream I would be interesting the

relationship to the object of desire. It appears for me as

centering on the flying objects and the gathering of

relations. Two forces seem to create the interplay, the

dreamer's desire to see and have others see the flying

objects, and the frustrating (interruption) of the

obtainment of this wish. Why would the dream try to

frustrate or interrupt a wish? Is the Freudian notion that

the dream is just trying to balance repression with

expression satisfying to us? I want to posit here that the

frustration of the wish allows for the reality of the

fantasy and the unfolding of the desire. Notice what

happens when the dream ego finally "gets" what it wants -

the show is over, the plot shifts.

This makes the frustration/interruption out as

another essential character in the play rather than just a

problem or obstacle. An inviable, off stage player like the

flying objects themselves, the frustration might be for me

a teacher. The frustration slows me down, it dis-connects

me from the phone, it interrupts my having what I want thus

increasing my connection to the desire itself.

But I don't wish to be psychological here. If this

were my dream I would want to find some way to help the

desire, with its necessary interruptions, begin to unfold

itself. It seems its already doing this.

Whatever the flying objects are, they are able to

produce fantasy and desire, and to create ways of keeping

this show going in an intense way. The suggestion I get

from the dream is that the container for this desire will

come from the dreamer's ability to be with, yet not grab,

the thing itself, (which seems be developing quite nicely

as evidenced by the dreamer's ability to both allow for odd

shifts and yet return to the main theme).

Its interesting to note that Jung's take on visions

of UFO's as manifestations of the Self reflected an era

where UFO's were like the God/Devil, either coming to

destroy or save us. Now that we have become a society which

has moved even further from talk about God/Devil, we

encounter visions and fantasies of aliens coming to

experiment on

us.

Is this a projection of our eternal loneliness, and

we now like to fantasize that something out there still

might think we are interesting and deserve attention? I

guess earth-girls have always been easy and gotten

extraterrestrial attention, but the abduction stuff seems

more contemporary. My main point in this was that I found

it interesting that there was not a vision in this dream of

one, singular UFO, but a whole celestial array.

Does the Jungian idea of the projection of the

Mandalic Self hold up under multiplicity? It seems that

this dream is struggling with this issue, and is in my

mind furthered by the reference to agnostic and especially

pagan day-world interests. If this were my dream I would

want to find ways of rendering or bring out the spirit of

the vision in my everyday life.

I take this clue from the strong feeling the

dreamer had about the dream seeming so real, and only being

a dream after awakening. I can't help mentioning that this

(the feeling-its-real) is a big part of the alien

abductionists theory. See Dean M. McClanahan's new article

in _Dream Network_ 13(4), "The Phenomena of

extraterrestrial-UFO dreams". I don't believe or not

believe in all this, its just doesn't interest me much as a

literal happening as much as our response to it interests

me. The question for me is not "Is it true" but, "Wow, this

all make me feel things I don't normally feel, what can I

do with and within this alien modality? What new freedoms

and opportunities and pleasures are now available?" Linda

Magallon once said to me about UFO dreams, "*We* are the

aliens!"

======"THIS, THAT, AND HERE STREETS" by Jim======

1995 February 12 0815am, after 7h 22m of sleep, second

dream (not third)

I was at a place where they were building new

streets. It was a small town on a river, and a bridge led

from this, but it seemed initially not to an urban area,

but into some woods, although I never remembered this in

this dream.

It seemed near my workplace. The houses were old

brick buildings, and except for two main rutty streets, all

the streets were alleys. The two main streets,

perpendicular to the river, were called some pair of names,

perhaps This and That streets.

I attended regular meetings on these streets,

mainly This Street. I saw that it was getting harder to

park in this area. One time I tried it and wound up parking

in an urban area. I got assigned somehow to helping build

more streets. I was to go over and help by putting bricks

in place and so forth. It seemed that the alleys and even

parts of This and That street were made of brick.

The new street being built was across the river, so

I went over there with another person. That Street led

across the river to another street across the bridge, which

was under construction. The guy replied that the person

who came with me, an Army captain, who came up with the

plans for this street was going to call it Here Street.

The scene there was a typical construction mess with a

street being elevated by pylons in the river and on shore.

Back home I tried to park in that place but I had

some compunctions about it because it was opposite a store.

This store was at the intersection of Main and That

Streets; it was on the side of That Street away from This

Street. So I went down That Street and took a short cut

across some alleys in a zigzag towards This Street, going

by a high brick tower. I still could not find parking.

======Commentary by Jay on Jim's "This, That and Here

Streets"======

This dream has an unusual feel to me. Very dry,

little mention of feelings, almost no other characters, the

unusual names for the streets, so logical and abstract.

Are these the actual names that occurred in the dream or

names that Jim substituted for the actual dream names?

Most of the dream is centered around the small town

side of the river yet the street named 'Here' is on the

other side of the river.

What do 'this and that', bricks, alleys, rutty, and

army captains bring to Jim's mind?

Bricks seem to predominate through out this dream.

They remind me of solidness.

The dominate issue seems to be the difficulty

encountered in parking in the small town of 'this and that'

where the workplace, meetings, store and tower are, ending

up in the urban 'here' instead. Also, others are building

the new streets in the small town, but Jim ends up doing

his building on the urban side. Jim seems to want to be

'parked' in, and be a part of, the small town but is 'here'

in the urban town instead.

I hope this is helpful to Jim.

======Commentary by Richard on Jim's "This, That and Here

Streets"======

"What a odd little dream," said Alice.

"Yes," said the red flower, "It seems to swim in two rivers

at once!"

If this were my dream, I would see it as a helpful

image in locating myself within a new project under

construction. I would spend some time getting a feel for

the inner landscape. Where is my forest and how do I

access it? Is my forest that place where I wander off for

peace and quiet, or is it a potential area that I see as

ripe for development? Where is my river? Does the source

come near the forest, or is it so wild I need to build

paths across it? How might I facilitate this construction

if that is my commitment? Where are my new projects and is

there an Army captain in charge? Is that the way I want

this new town to develop, is it OK that the Army captain

gets to name and control the construction of the paths?

I question the Army captain only because there is a

missing yet present figure in the dream, a trickster of

sorts that I feel is delighting in displacing nouns names

with place signifiers, here, there, this, that. for me,

this functions to set up two different street maps, a

physical one designated by geographic metaphors and a more

whimsical one set up by adverbial play. I say whimsical

because it feels there is an attempt in the beginning to

say the names of the streets could be something, but there

is some arbitrary movement to dismiss the names. In

English, when we want to say something is not important, we

can say its "Neither here nor there."

Yet by the time we get to the Army Captain, I get

the feeling of a second logic developing, as if the captain

may have literally wanted to name the street Here. Its

unclear to me why the store presents

problems,("compunctions" due to something the store itself

holds or just that it might be in the store's territory?)

but it is clear that a new desire enters in. If this were

my dream I might call this the desire to have the new town,

the new construction, the new self somehow connect to home.

And here I would emphasize a metaphorical home, the inner

place from where we came and were we deeply touch base,

where we park, or try to. This dream provides a desire to

have that place and the desire's frustration in this being

so. Its as if I want to consolidate a growing new area in

my life (or in my soul) on one hand with an older, more

comfortable one on the other. However, is this desire

frustrated in the dream in order to frustrate that in my

life, or is the frustration simply function to give the

desire some time to play out and come into consciousness so

I have an opportunity to creatively act on it as I choose?

It is, after all, on Main street.

Well, I can see I fallen into a classical reading

of the dream as a "human potential" dream, so I might as

well play this out. What is the solution offered by the

dream to the problem of getting where we want to go? It

seems to be the problem posed by the Myth of Theseus and

the task of getting through the Maze (the zig, zag alleys

between That to This). William Stekel often mentioned "The

Labyrinth" in dreams and saw them as the knot were memories

get tangled. The key, mythically, seems to be in going in

and dealing with the Beast, the Minotaur, and also having a

guide (Ariande's thread). Is this something like going into

ourselves and slaying the father's monster? I don't quite

get that from this dream.

What is found in the labyrinth is not a monster but

a Tower. Another very intense symbol. In my fantasy, the

tower can at least *see* both the home and the new

construction, but the connection would still only be a

vision rather than a reality. Anyway, if this were my

dream I would experiment with it as a connector dream, a

way of exploring new projects, how they are going, how they

fit with the past (home) and where I can park my vehicles

(metaphorical vehicles, what gets you There, how you

travel), paying especially close attention to the areas

where I get lost trying to take short cuts or making my own

way. Hmmm. Perhaps the bridge between Home and Here is

something like the zig zag path that is neither completely

constructed like my ego activities, yet not fully formed

either like Home. Great dream.

======"Alien Experiments" by Richard======

I've just witnessed or seen the last of a series of

"Alien" movies. I recall the horror as everyone has to

leave or be destroyed. Then another film begins, a new

"Alien" movie and I'm in it as a boy about 7 or 8 years

old. I'm being held at some kind of facility. For some

reason unknown to me, I'm the only one that they think will

be able to negotiate with the alien. They have one that is

just barely contained at a special facility. But there is a

background paranoid sense that the boy is just being used

and will be destroyed by the alien and the people who run

the place aren't telling him or anyone else this.

I disobey and wander around the facility. It's just

like any other corporation. People are coming into work and

talking with one another. I'm particularly drawn to listen

to this one guy who is a real player and has convinced

another guy to go along with him in a gag on a third party.

I can walk around pretty much unnoticed as I'm a child and

they don't know my destiny. They do something with the

telephone connection closet, thousands of wires here and

its right next to the alien cell. The boy has the feeling

that they may short something and this will be an essential

key to the alien getting away.

======"breaking up is hard to do" by Stan======

DATE : 10 FEB 1995 06:23

-( just another typical night at welding class. later i

read rather a lot in the _history and disease_ which i have

found to be disappointing, too speculative with little

evidence and not much references. the author is obviously

a doctor who knows the diseases and not much of a

historian. went to sleep near 23:30. )-

i am at a large university, and i am a student,

master's graduate level. i am driving a long stretch

limousine with a pretty blonde woman, martha williams, who

i knew as a kid from the baptist church. she is sitting in

back, although i am not just a chauffeur because i have

borrowed this long car from someone i know.

it is early evening, the sun just setting. i pull

over in a parking zone that parallels a long lake in the

middle of campus. i get out of the car in order to get in

the back section with martha. we watch the sunset and

birds around the water. she is fretting about something, i

can tell. i try to comfort her by putting my hand on the

back of her neck. before i can say anything, she has

turned into my arms and is kissing me. it sure feels good,

and slowly she heats up almost into passion.

then she breaks away, a worried look on her face.

"i need to go take a shower and clean up," she says to me.

"can you drop me off at the women's gym and i will meet you

later this evening by the school of education? i would

like to continue this, but i have some things i must take

care of first."

i agree and start up the car. it is rather

difficult to reach through the front seat to the controls

but i manage to do so. just reached right through the

seat. the arms to the steering wheel is not so difficult,

but the feet to the pedals are crowded and further to

reach. as i pull out of the parking area, i see a couple

campus police cars lurking beyond on the grassy areas. i

hope they did not mind us stopping to kiss. i get to the

corner stop sign and have some trouble reaching the brake

pedal. the car stops but in a liquid gliding motion where

the back end stops first and whole vehicle stretches until

the front end stops. then the rear portion creeps forward

to resume its normal shape. this has caused the car to

overshoot the stopping place before the intersection.

fortunately,

no one is coming on the through street so i quickly turn

left and

resume.

further down the next block i pull over and martha

gets out. she kisses me once very long and says she is

looking forward to seeing me tonight. there is a worried

look in her eye, but i do not think it has to do with me.

as she walks across the street to the women's gym, i watch

her go. she is certainly nice looking from behind. i start

up the car, this time from the driver's seat and return it

to my friend some blocks ahead.

i have a couple hours to kill before i am to meet

up with martha, so i walk around the buildings, enjoying

the evening. what a fine night i am hoping for. i pass

the women's gym where i believe she is inside showering.

next over is a stadium where a crowd of people are starting

to gather for some competition. between the two is a

terrace area with a lot of steps and stone railings. i

turn a corner and i see martha on the next terrace up,

talking with terry roof. she has been going steady forever

with him, everyone expecting them to get married and i

presume they live together. he is considerably more

muscular than when i knew him and his hair is shoulder

length and as blonde as hers. he seems to be an athletic

star of the campus.

i am out of range to hear what they are saying, and

i do not want to intrude on their space. her hair is still

wet from the shower, combed back straight and giving her a

determined and hard look. i sit down on the steps under

the cover of the stone railing. just as i do, i see martha

hand terry back his college ring and he is shaking his head

in denial. i understand now what she was so worried about.

i had completely forgotten about her long time relationship

with this guy.

i wish i had just slipped away from here and left

her a great distance in which to talk with terry. but i am

worried that her resolve will falter and so i am stuck in

place. in their now heated conversation, they pass the

head of the stairs where i am seated. terry sees me and

his eyes tighten with anger. i smile back lamely, more

worried about the discomfort he is feeling than any fear

for myself. martha then sees me and her face lights up

with a sad happiness. i do not get up or say anything,

just sit there nearby and let them continue.

now terry seems to be thundering some sort of

threats, but martha stands her ground unworried now. the

more he gets angry, the more it seems to strengthen her.

he is not realizing this, apparently concerned for himself

and being unable to strengthen what he wants, he is instead

tearing it further apart. perhaps he needs this too.

after a while he has spent his fury and now turns away with

a shrug and gesture of dismissal. martha comes down the

stairs toward me. a couple tears have run out of her right

eye, but now she is smiling. she has a strong determined

look of anticipation as she has done what she believes to

be the right thing. i stand up to meet her and just take

her hands. nothing is said, we just stand there and let

the heat of terry's anger dissolve into the air.

i see terry come up behind her, but she does not

notice, now a little desensitized by all the preceding

turmoil. he reaches up to a branch on a tree and hangs

there his college ring she has returned to him, looped into

a plain gold chain he had been wearing. i guess she had

given him that chain at some point. at first i think this

is an acceptance of the lost bond and so a dismissal of the

symbols. but as i see him walking away i get the

premonition of a suicide attempt for revenge sake. oh

crap, now what? i have not been active at all in this and

martha is quickly winding down into a mild form of

emotional shock.

scooping her up into my arms, like some comic-book

hero, i start to carry her away. not so much to anywhere,

but just to distance her in case that guy does attempt some

further desperate displays. walking does not seem

effective enough, so i lean forward to fly across a parkway

with a lot of traffic. martha just snuggles into my chest

and closes her eyes with a contented sigh. i am

unaccustomed to carrying any burden when i fly, so the

concentration i need to maintain is much greater than

usual. i find an area with a secluded stone bench and put

her down.

"you wait right here," i tell her. "there is

something i must look into but i will be right back." she

seems grateful to have a little time to herself. i suspect

she will need a little contemplation to get back into her

normal self after the emotional loss of face. especially

difficult since i happened to be there, which i would have

avoided had i known. i was pretty dumb about that i feel.

after i step through the concealing bushes, i start

to fly back the way i came. i do not know what i can do,

but i had the impression of terry throwing himself off the

stadium to make a big public display of his despair. if i

can get there in time, perhaps i can fly up and catch him

so to save martha the discomfort of his revenge. i still

sense basically an anger in him at what he has lost, rather

than a true loss of happiness. i got the impression that

good feeling had left their relationship long ago, so only

the habits of possession held them together. somehow i had

become her catalyst out of that.

but i quickly find that i am too tired to fly much

further. i skid into the ground on my chest and shoulder.

i get up and try to walk quickly toward the stadium. but i

am not even making good time on foot. i do not know if i

have the energy to prevent a death plunge.

when i get closer, i can see i was worried for the

wrong thing. there is terry now surrounded by a group of

his relatives and friends. he is loudly proclaiming his

anger and unhappiness. indeed, it seems to have taken a

show quality the more he gets into it. now that he has his

support group to help him defuse, i turn back.

when i get back to martha at the bench, she is

standing and looking into the bushes. she turns as i walk

in. she has recovered her sense of certainty. i take her

into my arms and we kiss with such a directness, that even

tired as i am, a surge of energy flows through us and we

take off ballistic like a bottle rocket. kissing and

kissing, and squeezing closer and closer, we twist and turn

in uncontrolled flight across the campus. finally she

breaks herself away, rearing back her neck so her face is

straight into the air stream. shaking her head as her damp

hair comes free, she laughs out loud, deep in her throat,

"i knew it would be like this!"

i am pleased for her too, but the mental flow

through me is beyond exhaustion now. my insides ache like

they have been wrung and dried. although the flight energy

is still fuming out, our trajectory is nearly parallel to

the ground and only a couple feet high. we are streaming

along like a double rocket just above the ground. with a

sigh i release the propulsion and my back again scrapes

along the gravel. this is the second time tonight i have

skidded to stop. my flying is just not up to control for

some reason. i had hunched forward to protect her arms

around my neck from abrasion.

we get up out of the dust, brushing each other off

and laughing. yes, it seems like quite a night ahead of

us. i can hardly wait.

sometime later we are in a small restaurant with

lots of weathered wood and decorative plants. it is one of

those new age vegetarian type places. martha has ordered

conservatively, saying that we won't have much money for a

while. one of terry's relatives at the next table says,

"oh great first we have to put with you getting things

together with our nephew, and now you have to start all

over again with someone new."

"yes, you have to put with that." martha smiles.

"nothing that is worth having ever comes easy."

-(alarm rings a 05:55 and i am well awake and feeling

really good.)-

======Commentary by Richard on "breaking up is hard to do"

by stan kulikowski ii======

If this were my dream, I'd be glad I wrote it down

(and could write it down so well). I'd want to savor these

images and roll them around in my imagination for the

sheer pleasure of it all. I would find it hard to respond

to this dream, as it is almost seamless. Freud said there

is a navel in the heart of every dream that is

impenetrable, but this dream seem to be lacking this navel

quality so I'm going to shift to Jung and preface my

comments with the statement that I don't think this dream

*needs* a response, I just like given them.

So, If this were my dream I would translate the

people to inner people. Martha as Anima, my unknown mate

as psyche. Terry as Shadow, the part of myself I see as

morally inferior but holds beyond its doors the ultimate

mate. In a "normal" progression, Terry would have been

fought with, like a monster slain to obtain the princess,

one of many tasks of the King Father. But here the King

father seems absent. Rather, Martha herself has become her

own father and decided to leave Terry. From a feminist

perspective, we might note that she doesn't really get a

chance to be on her own,but moves form one man to another.

If this were my dream I might ask myself if I always

harnessed my imagination to tasks, or if I allowed my

imagination to be on its own at times.

There is a sort of fight. Terry threatens, but to

what? To self destruction. I guess this is often our

struggle with the Shadow. To follow its moral inferior

path would lead to debauchery and self destruction. In

this case, without Martha, without the mediatrix of the

unknown, the Shadow despairs....almost. It seems to be the

collective group that saves the Shadow. Is this like

confession or what? We give our sins out to the community,

and in doing so we find redemption. Or the Shadow finds

redemption, anyway. Very interesting. This is the path of

the writer, isn't it? Exposure, constant exposure.

This flying is interesting. Now the dream ego can

fly away with Martha. But this flight of the imagination

is tempered and full of physical concerns, concerns about

scraping the bodies on the earth,the pavement. And so she

functions not only as the reason to fly away, but also the

thing that keeps the flyer grounded. Normally Jung

considered the separation of Anima and Mother to be

important , but here retaining some earth seems to keep the

couple from flying off.

If this were my dream I would wonder if I were not

willing to much. I mean willing in terms of exerting to

much effort on my part when in contact with my inner

mediator of the unknown. I feel very conservative today, so

I'm going to push this point a little more. What is flying

in dreams anyway? Well, many things, from escape to frolic,

from elevation to inflation. But all of them involve an

interesting mix of conscious and unconscious elements in

that we have broken with the normal fabric of reality, yet

in a way are working with reality. For to *not* fly in a

dream (or not realize you can fly) speaks to a larger sense

of unconsciousness than flying, since flying indicates that

to some degree you *know* you are dreaming. But there may

be another way to fly in dreams, which I see here. If we

exert the will to go forward, our body image will, to some

degree, follow.

What is the factor then, that allows us to believe

its normal to fly and still not have it turn into a lucid

dream? I can only name this Desire that transcends the

boundaries of reality, a kind of Anima structure itself

that points to the sublime. But the beauty of this dream

is that the Anima, Martha, recognizes this problem herself.

At the end Martha and the dreamer talk about the earned and

the unearned. Here she aligns herself to one of her

namesakes, Martha of the bible, the worker as opposed to

Mary her sister. And so perhaps an appropriate return

from whence she came (The Baptist girl). Now the couple,

regardless of what brought them together, can do the work

that, as Martha implies, makes it all worth it. So, briefly

stated, if this were my dream I would see it as an

invitation by my passion to join forces and create a

beautiful relationship.

======"Nightmare" by Cathy======

Warning: The end of this dream is very disturbing,

disgusting, and violent. Don't read it, if you can't

handle body mutilation.

I was in a basement room with my mother and sister.

I think it was a laundry room. In the far corner of the

room of cold, plain, dirty concrete a series of creatures

keep "invading" the room. First some bugs, which we

ignored. Then sea creatures, crabs, shrimps, which we

noticed with surprise. Finally a huge, seven-foot tall

crab manifested in the middle of the room. It went after

my sister. All three of us fled.

Up on a ground-level floor of the huge compound, I

began to arrange search parties to look for my mother and

sister, who had not come up to this level. Somehow I was

in charge of a large group of people, including many small

girls. I made sure the young girls only went off in groups

to search the caverns below. I was worried about losing

more people in the lower levels.

I was left alone in a large rectangular room with

an adult white male, slender built, brown hair, and a

mustache. He had been helping direct the search. I

suddenly suspected that he had been responsible for

situation. I grabbed a sharp kitchen knife from a hanging

utensil rack and held it to the man's throat by standing on

a chair or something such that his head was at the level of

my chest. I threatened him, then began to cut off tufts of

his mustache. I couldn't really believe he was evil.

Then he pulled a needle on a wire through my left

nipple. I thought in shock, it can't really have pierced

my nipple or it would hurt more. I stabbed the knife into

his upper arm and tried to drag it across to his heart. He

took the wire and wrapped it around my feet and began to

cut them off with the razor sharp wire. I felt pain

throughout my dream-self. I could feel my feet being cut

off and the pain in my breast. I tried to drag the knife

over and it caught on his bones. The bones of his shoulder

were exposed and white, as I had some how hacked off all of

the flesh off his upper arm. As I tried to drag the knife

over the arm bone into the crest I thought, I will die

before I can push this knife into his heart. A spasm of

pain came over me, and I awoke.

======"Frisbee and House for Sale" by Viking======

A little setup first. Last night a guy called

about home mortgages, I guess my wife had talked to someone

a few weeks ago, and the guy was following up. We are

considering buying, but our credit rating sucks, so we

thought we would check out if we even come close to

qualifying.

The dream: I was driving through a suburb which is

not the greatest suburb in the area, however I went by a

very nice house that was for sale. I then went home and

told Val that I had seen a really nice house for sale, but

it was in a not too great location. I then went out of the

house I was in, which seemed to have very large windows.

When I went out into the back yard, some people were

playing Frisbee. An old friend, Dick, threw the Frisbee

to me and I picked it up and threw it back very wobbly. I

remember thinking that was a crappy throw.

So what do you all think? I know where the for

sale house came from, but the Frisbee game is a little odd.

Dick and I used to be close friends high school and

college. I meet him again just recently by accident on the

net and we've had a delightful mid-life summit. Maybe I

feel like he is giving me good stuff, but the stuff I

give back is not too good? Maybe I just feel like playing

Frisbee?

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